Episode 20 - What is a Human Rights Defender and Who Protects Them?
Show notes
Transcript
Show notes
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:00:00] Dr Miranda Melcher: Hello and welcome to Just Access. In this podcast series, we talk to some fascinating people, including legal experts, academics, and human rights advocates from all walks of life. Through these conversations, we explore ideas about the future of human rights and improving access to justice for all. Our goal is to educate the wider public and raise awareness about human rights.
[00:00:25] After all, our motto is, “Everyone Can Be a Human Rights Defender”. My name is Dr. Miranda Melcher, and I’m a Senior Legal Fellow at Just Access and the host of this podcast. In this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking to Mary Lawlor, who is currently Special Rapporteur on Human Rights Defenders, appointed by the UN Human Rights Council in 2020. She is also the founder of Frontline Defenders, and has had various positions with Amnesty International.
[00:00:48] We talk about all of this, and more, in our conversation. Let’s get to it.
[00:00:57] Interview
[00:01:00] Mary Lawlor, you’ve had a truly remarkable career in human rights. You’ve worked with Amnesty International Ireland, both on the staff side and the governance side. You founded and ran the organization Frontline Defenders that we’re probably going to talk a bit about. And of course, you’re now the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights Defenders.
[00:01:17] How did this all begin? What brought you to human rights?
[00:01:21] Mary Lawlor: I think it all started, I got to know Sean McBride, who was one of the founding members of Amnesty International and also a friend of the family only because he became a friend of the family. We didn’t know him in the beginning. And I was asked to collect him one night at the airport. He was coming back from Russia and it was about midnight.
[00:01:43] And on the way back in the car I asked him, you know, what had you been doing and all of that. And he told me. And then when we got home to his house, he asked me would I come in and help him with his post for a while. Now, this is by 1 a. m. In the [00:02:00] morning and he just flown from Russia and he was probably in the seventies.
[00:02:05] He was in the seventies. So I went in anyway and he opened every single letter from every single person around the world and he dictated a response for me to send, which I duly did, and it took about three hours and I was exhausted, but it made a huge impression on me.
[00:02:25] That a man at this stage of his life was still willing to write some kind of words and try and help so many people all around the world. So I got interested in Amnesty International then and I joined. Actually the way it happened was they were looking for somebody on the executive committee. Amnesty was really small in Ireland then. There were less than a hundred people. And there was what do you call it?
[00:02:51] A board. And they were looking for people for the board. So I went on the board and I thought I’d be doing very exciting work, but in [00:03:00] fact, they wanted me to fundraise. So I spent a large time, a large part of my time on the board fundraising and having cheese and wines, which became legendary in Dublin.
[00:03:12] They were very well attended. But so that’s how I got started in Amnesty. And then it just developed from that. I went on, I stepped down from the board. I then a couple of. years later applied for the job as director. I was director for about 12 years. The section grew and we managed to fundraise enough to get an office and professional staff, because it was all voluntary when I was on the board.
[00:03:40] And then I decided I really wanted to concentrate on human rights defenders at risk because I think they’re the people who bring about change, who help build civil and just society in their countries. So I set up Frontline Defenders in 2001.
[00:03:58] Dr Miranda Melcher: I wonder if you can tell us a bit more [00:04:00] about that last piece.
[00:04:01] Perhaps for people who may be less familiar, can you tell us what a human rights defender is and maybe give us some examples of the kind of work that they do?
[00:04:08] Mary Lawlor: Yeah. A human rights defender can be anyone. In fact, everyone is supposed to defend the rights of others. And it is enshrined in the UN declaration on human rights defenders, which was 25 years old last year. And in the declaration it says anyone who promotes and protects human rights and fundamental freedoms is a human rights defender. For me, the only people I take up are people at risk. There are so many human rights defenders or people, I don’t really call them human rights defenders, even though technically I suppose they are, but there are so many people working in human rights all around the world doing really good work, but they’re not in danger because of that work.
[00:04:53] The people I take up are in danger because of that work. I’ll give you a couple examples. One of the [00:05:00] people I think is one of the most amazing human rights defenders in the world is this guy. He’s an engineer, he’s called Dr. Mudawi Ibrahim Adam. He’s in Sudan. And he has been imprisoned about seven times.
[00:05:13] He’s been held in terrible conditions. He’s been held outside in scorching weather and in freezing weather. He’s been put in solitary confinement for months and months on end to such an extent that he would try and talk to his jailers because he felt so isolated. And his work is documenting human rights abuses, particularly against women.
[00:05:39] He started way back, in Darfur, when there was that awful period and then he did South Sudan, and now he’s trying to document what the abuses that are going on in the conflict. And he just never gives up. He’s an amazing human rights defender.
[00:05:56] And then I was in Brazil on a country visit this [00:06:00] year, and I met an indigenous woman who had been shot five times, and her bodyguard had been shot, mutilated and basically cut up into pieces. And despite that awful risk, she’s still trying to work for the rights of her indigenous community. So it can be anything, you know, it can be working, as you know, and as most people know, and for any of the sustainable development goals, my new report is going to be on that.
[00:06:34] It can be against torture, it can be for fair trials, it can be on women’s rights, LGBTI rights, children’s rights, defenders with disabilities. The killings of human rights defenders is an issue and disappearances of human rights defenders is an issue that’s very close to my heart of a big priority for me and also long term imprisonment where states use this tactic of imprisoning people [00:07:00] for very long terms under so called either security or terrorist or something like that, just to keep them out of the way.
[00:07:09] And then, of course, now we have a renewed focus on the environment and on climate. So anybody who is working on any of rights that you and I believe in, and that anyone believes in, poverty or hunger or anything, they can be human rights defenders if they’re in danger because of their human rights work.
[00:07:27] Dr Miranda Melcher: That is very helpful to understand. Thank you. Obviously, one of your current roles is as UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights Defenders and given that picture you’ve painted for us of this, the broad scale of what sorts of things can involve human rights defense, and of course, the horrible risk that some take, what does that involve in terms of your role?
[00:07:47] What do you do as Special Rapporteur on a sort of day to day basis?
[00:07:52] Mary Lawlor: Okay, on a day to day basis I keep up with the complaints that come in to our inbox, and that is where NGOs or individuals or National Human Rights Commissions or OHCHR offices or anybody can send a complaint in about something or someone.
[00:08:17] Now, I take a people centered approach. I take up the cases of people who have been attacked or intimidated, or killed, or imprisoned, or tortured, because of their human rights work. We get many cases in every week. We also get hundreds of reports. Now, I can’t keep up with the reports, very good NGO reports, but we keep them for context and because also they’re not specifically a lot of the time to do with human rights defenders, it’s human rights defenders telling you about the situation, say, of women’s rights.
[00:08:56] The other thing we do is we have hearings. And yesterday I had a hearing with young women human rights defenders in Ethiopia, which is really shocking. Their situation is really shocking. They are doubly at risk because of the patriarchal and societal norms that are there in Ethiopia.
[00:09:17] And they have all been intimidated. They have all been surveilled digitally, their phones hacked, they’ve all been followed and they don’t know where the threat comes from. It’s not as if it’s easy to do an analysis of where the threat is because it could because of the society can be anyone.
[00:09:37] It could be the neighbor, it could be the government, it could be a random person in the street. And not only are they getting death threats, but they’re getting death threats, the children are getting death threats. One woman, she had to move her house when her address was put publicly online and, a death threat and, saying they were coming to get her children and rape her children.
[00:10:00] And another woman said that, if she goes shopping, or if her car is parked in a parking lot, they take a photo. People take a photo and send it to her and say, we’re watching you all the time. And then threaten her. To live in that kind of an environment with that kind of fear, I think is really extraordinary and they were all so brave, but so I have these hearings in order to get to know better the risks of particular human rights defenders. We have another one on Angola coming up next week. I try and do maybe one hearing a week. We reach out to different NGOs to help set up
[00:10:41] on the ground, people we know, people we trust to help set up on the ground. And then we try and follow up. Now in this case, none of them wanted to be publicly named. And we always have to have consent if we take up a case. But they do want me to write a general communique, allegation letter or press release or something about the situation for women human rights defenders in Ethiopia, which I will do.
[00:11:08] So then the daily work is the communications. That’s what these formal letters to government. This is when you take up a case and you do a communication. Formal letters to government asking them questions. They sometimes respond, and they often don’t respond, and sometimes the response is just blah de blah.
[00:11:27] It’s a standard response to everything that they send every, to, to any communication. So that takes up a lot of time. The hearings take up a lot of time, the communications that other special rapporteurs would like you to join take up a lot of time and then, as well as that, we always have the two, while we don’t have two country visits, this year. A special rapporteur is mandated to do two country visits officially a year and a report to the General Assembly and a report to the Human Rights Council, as well as to, in my case, try and implement the Declaration on Human Rights Defenders and try and protect defenders better.
[00:12:11] And in, so for example, my first country visit was to Brazil, where we were really, we were basically up in the Amazon the whole time. Apart from going to Sao Paulo to meet black mothers of young people who had been killed in the in the informal settlements and in the favelas who have all mobilized to try and find justice for their sons.
[00:12:33] But the indigenous communities and the Quilombola communities Quilombolas are descendants of African slaves in the Amazon. It’s all about land, it’s all about demarcation, it’s all about land invasion by these huge big farmers, by agribusiness, by extractive mining. And they’re all under attack.
[00:12:54] And it is just so sad because they are so connected spiritually and culturally to their land. And they are trying to protect the environment at a time when we know it needs to be protected and you have all these illegal loggers coming in and knocking down their trees. So that was Brazil. And then I went to Canada because I wanted to, we did a research on business and human rights and the effect of the Extractive Canadian mining industries on human rights defenders.
[00:13:26] We picked five cases in five different countries. And essentially I went to the government, I went to banks, I went to the extractive mining association. Yeah. And I did some interviews in an effort to raise the issue in, in, in Canada a bit. So it can be a mix, it can be a mix.
[00:13:44] Yeah, today I have to do the budget for the rest of the year. Very boring. And also we track all our communications, how many we’ve done. And we try and follow up on the cases. I have two people coming to the house today. We’re going to go through the last six months communications. We chart everything, we, we have a. a spread I don’t know what to call it, I think it must be Excel or something and we have all the communications in, so we need to go through them to make sure, that we are regionally balanced, because I try, as far as possible, to be regionally balanced and to make sure that we take up the cases of women because that’s harder, not as many women human rights defenders come forward for obvious reason.
[00:14:30] And also Africa has been a continent that has not been properly represented by the mandate. We’re trying to ensure that we are representing Africa. I’m going to Ghana and South Africa for some meetings towards the end of the year. The one in Ghana is a women human rights defenders network and South Africa, it’s not an official visit, but I’ll make it as the only difference really will be that I won’t do a report for the council, but I will get to see everyone I want to see.
[00:15:05] Dr Miranda Melcher: No, that is such a mix. How do you choose how to focus within that? How do you choose which topics to focus on or which countries to visit or which thematic reports to write?
[00:15:19] Mary Lawlor: When I started, I I set myself a list of priorities, and the priorities are killings of human rights defenders, long term imprisonment of human rights defenders, anti corruption human rights defenders, women human rights defenders, LGBTI human rights defenders, defenders with disabilities, reprisals against human rights offenders and in overlapping all of this is the whole area of business and human rights and very remote and marginalized human rights defenders generally.
[00:15:52] Like during COVID, I talked to people who had never spoken to anyone before, and that’s why we were continuing these [00:16:00] hearings because that was the only way we could work during COVID. So it was so successful that we built it into the work to have, ongoing hearings. And then this year or last year we added children who are human rights defenders and young people.
[00:16:17] And in fact I had a conference in Vienna on the 30th anniversary of the Vienna conference that set up the office of the High Commission, so we brought together 40 children and young people. There were 12 children and their guardians and the rest were under 32.
[00:16:37] 32 is the age viewed in the UN. And that was very successful. And we had done hearings with children before that. And the kind of things they work on, of course, they all work on climate, but bullying in schools, early marriage, that kind of thing. And they, in some cases, they face the exact same risks as adults.
[00:16:58] Yeah. And it’s difficult because you can understand, for example, when a parent wants to protect their child and the child wants to do something. So it is a difficult line where some of the Parents were totally behind them. But one child that we had on a hearing, when I asked him, did his parents know what he was doing?
[00:17:18] He said, no, I never tell them. It is tricky. And then there was one guy whose parents said to them, if you get arrested, we’re not coming to the police station. So that was really shocking to me. So anyway, so that they’re the priority. So what comes into the inbox, I will look at them in terms of those priorities. So I always take up insofar as I’m able, a killing, a disappearance, an anti corruption human rights defender, a woman human rights defender, an LGBTI human rights defender. But sometimes some of the other mandate holders, I check to see that they’re not taking up, the SOGI mandate is sexual orientation and gender identity or violence against women, or something like that. For example just lately in Kenya, the awful violence against women and the bodies that have been found ,I got in touch with the special rapporteur on violence against women, because although I have the human rights defender angle, hers is much broader.
[00:18:23] So I put her in touch with my sources so that she could get for her mandate the kind of information she needed.
[00:18:33] Dr Miranda Melcher: So it sounds like then there’s a lot of communication between the different special rapporteurs?
[00:18:39] Mary Lawlor: Well, there is and there isn’t. It’s really on a need to know basis or a reaching out basis.
[00:18:47] We’re all on a WhatsApp group. So as you can imagine, there’s like about 20 messages a day. And that’s a good way of keeping up with what people want. But to be honest, I prefer reaching out directly to the rapporteurs that I think would be best able to contribute to whatever it is I’m doing, like the way I reached out to Reem.
[00:19:14] But there are naturally some mandates that go with human rights defenders, like freedom of association, freedom of expression. We all, the three of us work quite closely together. I also work with some of the country mandates like Iran quite closely because I have somebody who is doing research on Iran, on women, on human rights defenders.
[00:19:40] And the special rapporteur on Iran doesn’t have as many resources as I have because I’m a good fundraiser. So I I have different people working on different regions who know the language and the culture and are skilled researchers. So we, I try and, we try and help out where we can.
[00:19:58] There is coordination, but it’s like everything else. It depends on how big a relationship you build with the person. It depends on how open they are, all of that kind of thing. But I’ve never had any problem with any special rapporteur. And in fact very often, for example, some of them would approach me and ask me, say they notice I’m doing lots of communications, which is true.
[00:20:22] How do I manage to do that? Now, the reason I managed to do it is because I fundraised to get people and I won a battle to be allowed to do the first drafts outside, which in the beginning I was told I couldn’t do.
[00:20:37] Dr Miranda Melcher: That’s interesting to understand a bit more about how this all actually works.
[00:20:42] When you spoke about the inbox and all the things coming in and the different examples you’ve given us so far something that is noticed, is a lot of them are a particular organization or individuals and circumstances. I know that historically one of the ideas of special procedures was that it would be a tool to address systematic, human rights violations beyond a particular individual or a particular organization.
[00:21:06] Is that something that still happens now? And if not, why not?
[00:21:11] Mary Lawlor: I didn’t know that for a start, just to, just so you know, I didn’t know Special procedures are independent of the UN system as you know, and we all have been given our mandate by a resolution at the human rights council and also by it’s set out anyway what you’re supposed to do.
[00:21:33] As I said, for me there are, in the special procedure group, there are country mandates, and for example, on Myanmar or OPT, or there’s a representative on Sudan, he’s not exactly a rapporteur, and there’s Belarus, for example. So you have different country mandates and that’s, their work is all embracing.
[00:22:04] And then you have thematic mandates. So somebody like me, human rights defenders, or freedom of association or freedom of assembly or food or housing, and then some of them take a policy approach, which is, they work more on policy, trying to change policy. I, because of the nature of my community, really try and work on protection.
[00:22:32] So I can’t see, myself, how special procedures could ever systemically or could ever tackle systemic violations because at the end of the day, it is states, it is the member states of the UN, and it is the member states of the Human Rights Council that have to agree. And really, if you just look at the way countries operate, they all operate on their, even the ones that are less bad, they all operate on their political and strategic interests. They never operate on a human rights based approach which is in my view, obviously like, you can see the hypocrisy with, for example the U.S. condemning the atrocities in Ukraine, but not in Gaza. And it’s the same with human rights defenders. If a human rights defender is working on an issue that the government doesn’t want to expose, they don’t want their reputation, this is really important, their reputation damaged they will do anything to silence that human rights defender.
[00:23:46] So when people give out about the UN system, and believe me, I would be one of the people who would give out about the about the UN system. It is important to remember that the UN is only member states, they, they can’t do anything without the will of the member state, they can fiddle around with technical assistance and stuff like that, and capacity building or something like that in country and monitoring, but they can’t actually bring about a change without the consent of the state. So that’s why I think it is, it’s a nonsense if the special procedures were set up to address systemic, you know…
[00:24:33] Because like when I do my report to the Human Rights Council, for example, state after state gets up and says how they support the mandate and how they do this, how they do that, the other thing and it’s all a bunch of lies. I just tackle them there and then. When Iran gets up and says they support the mandate, and when Russia gets up and says, gives out to me about children or, when Greece gets up and talks about their support and you see what they’re doing.
[00:25:01] Oh, sorry. The other one I forgot was defenders of refugees and migrants and asylum seekers. Everyone has their own little list. And they dump on their enemies, and they go easy on their friends, and that’s just the way it is.
[00:25:16] Dr Miranda Melcher: Very much human nature, in fact. What then, from your perspective, being really in the midst of all of this, do you see as some of the biggest gaps in the system, whether we want to call it human rights or justice, what to you are the biggest areas of concern systemically?
[00:25:33] Mary Lawlor: Impunity, of course. Impunity is really A terrible gasp because there’s so few perpetrators of injustice brought to justice. And like in every single report from every previous mandate holder, in all the recommendations a recommendation for an end to impunity.
[00:25:59] And it [00:26:00] basically doesn’t mean anything, because people aren’t brought to justice. And, I think you have to start with the killings, because I think killings should be a red line, and killings should be tackled. And I think if you did start with the killings, then bit by bit, you might trickle down a bit.
[00:26:15] And there’s too few legally binding instruments. And even where there are legally binding instruments they are under attack. We see what’s happening now with the ICJ and the ICC. They yeah, I think everyone knows what they are. And then in, like, when I was in Algeria last year on a, on an official country visit at the press conference at the end people got up and said they had lost faith in the UN system because the UN system was doing nothing about Gaza, which actually isn’t true because, to be honest UNRWA have been heroic on the ground, in my view and also all the doctors and all the medics and all the human rights defenders who are [00:27:00] still trying to document violations.
[00:27:02] I took up the cases of two women human rights defenders who had been killed and the last photo of one was in this little garage area, and she was sitting with a bunch of women and children with her notebook writing down. I think that there has been a loss of faith because of the fact that Israel is being is being allowed to have different standards, if you know what I mean, and I think that’s dangerous. And Sudan, there, there really is nothing in the international system when it comes, there are resolutions, I did a report on women, peace and security, women, human rights defenders, peace and security for the last general assembly. But there, there is nothing that, there’s, yeah.
[00:27:51] There’s just nothing that is strong enough to be implemented, and it won’t be implemented without the [00:28:00] consent of states. And then we’re back to the state’s political and strategic interests. So they are gaps, they’re serious gaps,
[00:28:08] Dr Miranda Melcher: Yeah. In terms of your work within all of this you’ve had the position of Special Rapporteur, I believe, since 2020 with a mandate until 2026.
[00:28:18] So we’re really lucky to speak to you right in the middle of that. Of the many things you’ve done in the role, some of which you’ve told us about, are there maybe a few things that particularly jump out at you that you’re the most proud of?
[00:28:29] Mary Lawlor: I think success is collective. I don’t ever believe that it’s just one person or one, one government or one, whatever.
[00:28:38] Well, I do think governments have more power. It depends on how much power they have over the country. I suppose what I’m most proud of in the time I’ve been there is we, and also just before I say what I’m most proud of, I think it’s important to realize that we all have a different [00:29:00] role.
[00:29:00] For example, in my view, the role of NGOs and human rights defenders on the ground is to document and to monitor and to bring to the attention of the international community and to lobby, of course. But what the added value as I see it of my role is that states generally will see me, will listen to me, even the oppressive ones.
[00:29:28] And so I try to bring the voices of those whose voices are being squashed to the international community and to give those defenders who are under attack visibility and recognition at the international level. When it comes to one of what we’re what I’m, we’ve done good work on is.
[00:29:51] The directive on mandatory human rights and environmental due diligence that was adopted by the EU lately, it’s not perfect by any means, [00:30:00] but we lobbied very hard to get human rights defenders into it. And in the legal section there is a reference.
[00:30:08] So we feel we did quite well out of that. Now. It’ll still only affect the biggest companies, but it’s a start. And for the EU to agree something like that, like two years, I was back and forth to Brussels like a bee. And so that would be one thing.
[00:30:28] The releases, when we follow up on the communications to see whether the mandate has had any contribution in about a quarter of the cases people are released. So that’s always very. Satisfying as you can imagine, because we all need a little bit of hope, we all need a little bit of a win now and again to keep working with enthusiasm. And then there are smaller wins like we heard anecdotally. One of the things when I was doing the report on long term imprisonment is that I [00:31:00] wrote to all the states that had long term cases of imprisonment. And I took 10 years as their benchmark so anyone over 10 years, and I went back over all the communication since 2001, and I put all of those that we could still get consent for who were still in jail in the communication.
[00:31:22] Now in some cases we couldn’t get consent, but in most cases we got it. But it was like, it is so tragic, you know, there’s a guy in China who’s already been in for 33 years. And anyway, there’s so many sad cases, but one of the, one of the small victories was in two of the cases in China, we heard anecdotally from the lawyer and the family that one defender had been moved to a cell where he had access to books and light which if you’re serving a very long sentence [00:32:00] means something.
[00:32:01] And then the other one that we heard was he was given a family visits and visits with his lawyer. So although they weren’t, obviously they weren’t released and that’s what we want. But at least their living conditions were better. But I think, when it comes to the communication system, I think you cannot underestimate the effect that some communications have for a defender in terms of solidarity, in terms of recognition, and in terms of giving them visibility if they want it because.
[00:32:37] So often they feel that, no matter what they do, they can’t get their voices heard. They can’t get their issue heard. So to be acknowledged and recognized as credible and legitimate through a communication is a huge boost.
[00:32:56] Yeah.
[00:32:59] Dr Miranda Melcher: As a final [00:33:00] question then, what can the rest of us do?
[00:33:02] Obviously we’re not all special rapporteurs. What can NGOs, the press, general people do to contribute to this work improving human rights?
[00:33:13] Mary Lawlor: I think
[00:33:15] the first thing everyone could do and can do is to emphasize that everyone has the right to defend rights. And in any country, there will be examples of people who are defending rights who aren’t in danger and who are accepted by the government.
[00:33:33] For example, the popular right people working on them, they’re not in danger in, for example, Western Europe. But the unpopular ones, like LGBTI in Eastern Europe, or anywhere in Europe, refugees, migrants, and asylum seekers, what is happening to defenders of refugees, migrants, and asylum seekers, leaving aside the complete inhumanity that is happening to [00:34:00] refugees themselves is really appalling because they’re being given charges of aiding and abetting illegal entry, money laundering and espionage.
[00:34:11] I did a country report on Greece, went around the islands, looked at the landing sites, talked to all the people, talked to the search and rescue, saw where they were being pushed back from, all that kind of stuff and the kind of things that young people who were just very idealistic who wanted to help these poor migrants and refugees and asylum seekers was shocking.
[00:34:35] It was really shocking what was happening to them. So I think that emphasizing that everyone has the right to defend rights, and that human rights defenders aren’t, they’re not a special category of people, they’re ordinary people who very often are just seeking to work against injustice, and they want to speak out against it.
[00:34:59] So that [00:35:00] should be part of, in my view, it should be part of every political manifesto, the right to defend human rights. And politicians only listen to people. So people should approach their local counselors, or parliamentarians, whoever. So that would be one thing. And then, if human rights defenders are delegitimized as they are being all over the world then that will have a further erosion on human rights. So that’s why it’s so important to try and protect human rights defenders. And I know you’re in Germany, aren’t you? So I’ve seen some of the, the environmental climate erosion in Germany. Which is very it’s problematic, obviously.
[00:35:51] I think you need to really make the case that human rights defenders aren’t just involved in protecting some form [00:36:00] of individual rights, but also the whole concept of human rights, so that a society will not move to being, unjust because human rights defenders do build civil and just society.
[00:36:14] And then highlighting hypocrisies. Governments really hate when you highlight their hypocrisy because they don’t like to be shown up in any international fora. So I would say trying to get the press and the advocacy to match it would be really good.
[00:36:33] I’ve been to Germany several times and I’ve met with all the government officials and, we’ve had words and, again Germany has, and I understand, for example, when it comes to the OPT, that it’s in the DNA because of the Holocaust, and in one way, it was the first, my first realization of human rights when I was in school, was seeing an exhibition on the Holocaust.
[00:36:59] I was [00:37:00] so shocked that it it’s still there. It lodged in me. But even shocking as that is, there has to be an international standard approach. All the governments of the world ,they agreed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. They’ve all agreed to the covenants.
[00:37:19] Not all of them, but mostly the covenants on international, on, on civil and political rights, economic, social and cultural rights, all those other instruments that are there. So they really should stick by them. They can’t apply them when it suits them and disregard them when it doesn’t. And then I would say to anyone who is just wanting to get involved, that there will look in your community where the injustice is.
[00:37:45] There’s injustice in every community. It could be children in care. It could be refugees. It could be violence against women. It could be anything. And volunteer with an organization that [00:38:00] works on a particular set of rights that you might be interested in. That’ll give you good experience and it’ll just, and you’ll just build it into your daily life.
[00:38:10] Like you just get up in the morning and you just go to bed at night and part of your day is some human rights work. No, not everyone has to work at it all the time. But if somebody wants to improve the lives of others, that’s a good way to start.
[00:38:28] Dr Miranda Melcher: And what a brilliant way to conclude our conversation.
[00:38:30] Mary, thank you so much for speaking with us.
[00:38:33] Mary Lawlor: Thank you very much for having me.
[00:38:35] Outro
Thank you so much for speaking with us, Mary. We’ve learned a lot, and it’s been a fabulous conversation. To listeners, thank you for listening, and if you’re enjoying the Just Access podcast, please tell your friends, like us and share us on social media, and please do also rate us and leave us a review on your favorite podcast app.
[00:38:54] Mary Lawlor: We love to hear what you think, and we really do read every single review. It helps us get the word out about the [00:39:00] podcast and know what our listeners want to hear more of. You can also get in touch with us with your comments, reflections, or suggestions for people or topics we should cover by contacting us directly at podcast at just-access.de that’s podcast at just-access.de.
[00:39:17] Until next time!
Transcript
Episode 1 – Liz Evenson – HRW – Part 1
Intro
[00:00:00] Dr. Miranda Melcher: Hello and welcome to Just Access! In this podcast series we talk to some fascinating people, legal experts, academics and human rights advocates, and many more. We explore ideas about the future of human rights and improving access to justice for all.
[00:00:21] I’m Dr. Miranda Melcher, a Senior Legal Fellow at Just Access and over the next two episodes, I speak with Liz Evenson. She is the International Justice Director at Human Rights Watch, or HRW. In this first episode, we focus on introducing Liz and her role at HRW. In the second episode, we’ll focus on her recommendations for improving access to justice, especially at and via the International Criminal Court, or the ICC.
[00:00:50] Hope you enjoy the conversation.
Interview
[00:00:57] Dr. Miranda Melcher: Can you start us off please by telling us a bit about you and your background? How did you come to join the human rights?
[00:01:08] Liz Evenson: Thank you so much and thanks for having me on your podcast! So, I’m a lawyer by training, I went to law school in the US and I also did a Master’s in European human rights law in England and I got interested in human rights when I was at university. I think I’d always been interested in issues of social justice, but it was really at university that for the first time as an undergraduate that I discovered this whole language of human rights, both the philosophy of it, the history of the different movements, the fact that there’s a whole system of international law to protect human rights. I didn’t know any of that until I rocked up as a pretty naive 19 year old in the university class.
[00:01:55] But it really just spoke to me. It felt like this is a vocabulary that matches the things that I value and believe and is a vocabulary that can help me be part of remaking the world or being part of some change processes. And so I followed that interest through my law studies and then I actually ended up at Human Rights Watch through a great program that Human Rights Watch has, which is a fellowship for early career law graduates and in fact I got a fellowship that was specific to my law school, donated by someone quite special.
[00:02:30] So I actually entered Human Rights Watch on a one year fellow, basically a traineeship for human rights documentation and reporting and came then in contact with colleagues who were working on international justice issues and got a position after my fellowship and I’ve been with Human Rights Watch ever since, which is in total now some 16 years.
[00:02:53] Dr. Miranda Melcher: Okay, that’s pretty cool! Thank you for sharing that pathway with us! But we are going to focus mainly on what you currently do at Human Rights Watch. So what is it that you do? How would you explain it to someone who maybe isn’t particularly familiar with HRW?
[00:03:11] Liz Evenson: Well, the simplest way to explain it, I think, is that I’m part of a team that champions justice for victims of serious international crimes. And putting that into the context of what Human Rights Watch does many of my colleagues at Human Rights Watch are the ones who are going out there and trying to get to the truth of what’s happened when it comes to human rights violations: interviewing survivors, interviewing witnesses, going to governments, asking, you know, what happened or going to others who might be responsible for these violations. And I should say on Human Rights Watch we work on the whole spectrum of human rights issues: social rights, economic rights, civil political rights, not only the kinds of human rights violations that might rise to a level of serious international crimes, but our work comes in basically as the other side of the coin.
[00:04:00] So our colleagues are documenting and making public and exposing human rights violations that could amount to crimes under international law, war crimes, crimes against humanity, sometimes even genocide. And then we come in as the other side of the coin and try to figure out, okay, what strategies could be put in place to hold those, who are responsible for what turn out to be international crimes, to account through individual criminal responsibility, through courts of law.
[00:04:30] What kind of strategies do we need? How could we get there? How do we make those processes as victim and survivor centered as possible? So we are the other side of, once we have this reporting on these potential crimes, how can we then try to advance towards justice? And I say really advanced towards justice because justice is a very, very long game – it can take decades, it can also not ever materialize. So we are trying to champion justice as the end goal and trying to accompany the processes as we go along.
[00:05:05] Dr. Miranda Melcher: I like that. It’s helpful to put into the context of HRW’s work because I think often the on the ground tracking and documenting what’s happening might be more visible but that’s obviously part of what needs to be done, but stage two, what it sounds like you do is: okay, we know what happened, now what? How do we make sure that, that’s not the end of the story? So obviously very important work, but what does that look like day to day?
[00:05:30] Liz Evenson: Well, every day is really varied. That’s one of the things that I like so much about this job. I’ve just recently taken a new position as the leader of our international justice team. I previously was on the team for many, many years and I was focused really closely on the International Criminal Court.
[00:05:47] But in that job as in my new role every day is a bit different. It can look like conversations with colleagues, understanding, okay, we wanna advance something, how are we gonna get there? Can it be helpful to do strategizing? It could be reviewing documents that we’re putting out publicly, statements, press releases.
[00:06:07] It can be having meetings, phone calls in the last couple of years, mostly Zoom calls or other remote means with other NGO colleagues on a common strategy with the people we’re trying to convince to do things – so government representatives, could be court officials as well. It’s a lot of talking.
[00:06:28] When I was working from home, when I had a friend visiting a couple of years ago who’s a medical doctor, and after kind of listening to me work all day, she said, so like, when do you work? You just seem to be on the phone all day. And I was like, well, that is kind of, that’s how we make change.
[00:06:44] It’s through conversations, you know, as much as anything else, getting information that we need to make the best recommendations we can about what a justice process could look like here, what political will is necessary to get states to agree to do something that would support justice and then trying to popularize that through more conversations and public materials. So it’s really quite varied and every day is a mix of different things. One thing that we’re not doing is going into court ourselves. So I describe what we do really more as policy research.
[00:07:18] So that side of the international justice system, you know, what kinds of justice mechanisms are available, are any available? Oftentimes they’re not. So how do we start to build up towards calling attention even to the fact that justice is needed. And then taking those recommendations out there and doing advocacy and trying to create change.
[00:07:39] But, we’re not representing clients. We’re not in court. We’re not the prosecutors ourselves.
[00:07:44] Dr. Miranda Melcher: So that actually really helpfully kind of brings me to my next question, which is obviously you’re not in court, but you’re doing a whole lot to try and create or popularize or figure out ways for justice. And you’re also not a state, you’re not an international government organization. So how does that relationship, for example, with the International Criminal Court, with the ICC, how does that work? I imagine there must be benefits, but there’s probably also some challenges of this kind of position. Can you tell us a bit about that?
[00:08:14] Liz Evenson: Yeah, absolutely! So oftentimes we are trying to persuade government actors to do something. And I think that’s like maybe what you think of as classical human rights advocacy. We want to get a resolution passed in the Human Rights Council mandating a commission of inquiry or fact finding mechanism.
[00:08:33] And so we would be interacting with state representatives around that issue. But it’s true that in our work on international justice, at some level, the judicial authorities themselves are also the people we’re seeking to influence, but we’re seeking to influence them in a way that is fully, fully mindful and respectful of the fact that they are judicial authorities.
[00:08:56] So there’s an independence there that we’re also trying to protect. And in fact oftentimes our message to governments is, you need to stand up, you need to protect these institutions. They’re being sort of undermined by interests that are opposed to accountability. So this is why it’s really important to hear you say from the floor of the UN General Assembly, or the Security Council that you respect the independent decisions of the prosecutor and the judges.
[00:09:22] And want something like the International Criminal Court to work in a way that’s consistent with its mandate. So we have to always keep that in mind. And so I wouldn’t call what we do in terms of our engagement with judicial authorities, whether that’s the International Criminal Court or whether it might be lawmakers in a particular country that are, you know, maybe improving their laws to facilitate these kinds of prosecutions nationally.
[00:09:47] With the lawmakers and government representatives it’s one thing, but with judicial mechanisms like International Criminal Court, we’re not trying to impinge on their independence, in fact if anything, we’re doing a lot of work to make sure that independence is protected. But we are making policy recommendations, so not about the outcome of a particular case, or the innocence or guilt of a particular person, but issues like, so how should the prosecutor think about which cases to select? What are the different principles or guidelines?
[00:10:17] What does it mean for the ICC to do its work in a way that leaves a lasting legacy that has impact for victims and affected communities? How does that goal translate into how you make decisions about cases? All the way on down through how you have a presence in those communities as the ICC in order to make sure that justice is not only done, but also seen to be done.
[00:10:40] How do you forward plan for a time when the International Criminal Court’s mandate might come to an end, but there’s still gonna be a need for additional accountability processes, support for victims, reparations, proceedings, witness protection. So it’s in that area of kind of policy research and policy recommendations that we might be saying, oftentimes publicly, here are recommendations to the International Criminal Court.
[00:11:05] And we also engage in a dialogue with other NGOs through a network called the Coalition for the International Criminal Court, which really brings together the whole global international justice movement to have these kinds of conversations with court officials. So I think it’s important that something like the International Criminal Court, but I would say really any prosecuting authority, any judicial authority dealing with these kinds of crimes needs to have some kind of connection and outreach to NGOs.
[00:11:35] It’s the NGOs that are representing the constituencies here. They’re the kind of the stand in, for lack of a better word, for the global constituency, for doing justice for these kinds of crimes. And so in order for these processes to ultimately have legitimacy, they have to have legitimacy in the eyes of the people and one of the proxies we have for that would be the NGO communities, particularly those NGOs that are really working hand in hand with victims and survivor communities.
[00:12:06] Dr. Miranda Melcher: So that’s a whole lot of very cool, very nerdy things. I’m sure we can get in lots of nerdy detail about, the number of things you’ve reeled off that you work on, which is brilliant. So thank you for giving us that overview. This might be like choosing your favorite child. Hopefully not. But are there maybe some current or upcoming projects in particular that you maybe want to highlight for us?
[00:12:31] Liz Evenson: Well, this is gonna be kind of a nerdy answer, but it’s also the truth. I’m not sure when this podcast will air, but, next week, at the beginning of December, is the annual meeting of all of the governments that belong to the International Criminal Court. It’s called the Assembly of States Parties and it takes place over five, six days, sometimes in the Hague, sometimes in New York at UN Headquarters. This year it’s in the Hague. And I’m really looking forward to this for a couple of reasons. One, you know, it’s a place where really important work gets done, by states on behalf of justice.
[00:13:05] I’m sure your listeners will know that something like International Criminal Court, but again, any sort of justice process for these serious international crimes depends so much on the willingness of governments to support those processes, to protect them from obstruction, to put resources behind them. And so this is a platform where states parties will be doing some really specific things like setting the court’s budget or passing resolutions, but taken together, it’s really a moment to put the spotlight on the importance that they attach to victims having access to justice for serious international crimes.
[00:13:41] So I’m looking forward to the culmination of a lot of work that my colleagues and I do all year round to urge states to make the most of this moment. But the other reason I’m really looking forward to it is because it is really a singular gathering of the international justice movement. Even though it’s a meeting of ICC member governments, lots and lots of other justice topics will get discussed during side-events and corridor discussions. And particularly the last few years when in person gatherings have been limited for many, this will be my first time back at a Assembly of State’s party session in person since 2019.
[00:14:18] So I’m just looking forward to that community coming together and finding out what’s going on for people, what their priorities are and how these issues look, you know, from wherever they might be positioned in the world.
[00:14:29] Dr. Miranda Melcher: Wonderful. Well, that’s exciting to have that coming up so soon. Hope it is kind of all the things that you’re hoping for. Might there be something, maybe one more in like, I don’t know, the first half of 2023 that particularly comes to mind?
[00:14:53] Liz Evenson: Well, I think it’s probably no surprise to anyone who’s been following developments in international justice over the past year, that what’s happening in Ukraine has really drawn, sort of unprecedented in some ways, attention to the necessity of having justice for serious international crimes.
[00:15:11] And trying to understand what are all the different mechanisms that have now been activated and what are nonetheless, the barriers that might be in the way. So how to take this very strong, almost immediate impulse to talk about justice and to talk about the need for justice for what’s happening in Ukraine and make sure that it actually gets translated.
[00:15:34] Now, that’s not something that’s gonna be resolved in the first and half of 2023, but I think we’re gonna continue to see that response maturing and will give us an opportunity to have a look and see how is this all fitting together? Are there lessons that can be brought in from previous situations?
[00:15:49] Are there lessons that can be taken forward into other situations? And how do we take this interest, and kind of the spotlight that unfortunately has been put on the necessity of justice given what’s taking place, how can we take that spotlight and talk about what to do in other situations that also like Ukraine, where the delivery of justice is important and so essential. So that’s, I think, one of the key issues with us at the moment and it’ll be with us for quite some time.
Outro
[00:16:22] Dr. Miranda Melcher: Thank you, Liz, for sharing your story with us and giving us insight into the Human Rights Watch and the work you do with the organization. In our next episode, we’ll delve more into how to improve access to justice globally with Liz. Stay tuned!